Emily Perron helps bloggers and online entrepreneurs expand and improve their teams with talented freelancers. Her number one goal is to align the right person with the right role, so business owners and freelancers alike feel empowered to work within their individual skill-sets and strengths. Her expertise lies in hiring and managing in your Zone of Genius. 

After years of struggling to bring on quality freelancers in her own business, Emily figured there had to be a better way to find great support. Through a lot of trial and error, she learned that hiring freelancers for online businesses is a lot different than traditional corporate hiring strategies. Emily spent years refining her strategic hiring process that has allowed her to connect hundreds of knock-out freelancers with online entrepreneurs. She also teaches her hiring methods inside her self-guided digital course, The Hiring Fix.

Emily has a Master's Degree in Industrial and Organizational Psychology and Bachelor's Degrees in Psychology and English. Her professional background includes working in marketing, coaching and organizational consulting. Her past work and education make Emily uniquely qualified to understand what business owners need help with, and to put systems in place to find the best person to fill that role.

When she’s not working, you can find Emily reading, enjoying the outdoors of the Upper Midwest, playing the piano, and relaxing with a crafty project. She and her husband recently welcomed their first child, Tommy, and their family loves spending time together at home with their energetic dog.

Emily’s links:

https://www.emilyperron.com/

https://www.thehiringfix.co/

https://www.instagram.com/emily.perron/

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:37] Lindsay: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the book, your dream clients podcast. We have Emily with us today and she is a recruiting and hiring specialist. She helps bloggers and online entrepreneurs like you expand and improve their teams with talented freelancers. And we have a lot of ideas in common and methodology. So welcome to the show. 

[00:00:56] Emily: Hi, Lindsay. I'm so excited to be with you today. 

[00:00:59] Lindsay: Yes. I'm very excited to have you on why don't you go ahead and tell everyone what you do and then we'll just get the conversation started. 

[00:01:06] Emily: Yeah. Awesome. So I support bloggers and coaches, consultants, other kinds of digital business owners with building their teams.

[00:01:15] And so I do this in a couple of ways. I work privately with my clients to actually recruit for them. So I run their hair. I also help them build up their organizational strategy. So we're really setting a vision of like, what are the roles that your team really needs? And I do this with businesses at all.

[00:01:32] Like all points of the process. Some are, you know, beginning to have a team, some have a more established team. We're all looking for that next role, right? Like what is next for this team? And then I also teach my methods as well. Like my hiring process in a course called The Hiring Fix the digital program that walks you through everything.

[00:01:52] Like step-by-step really easy. So you just take it one little step at a time. So 

[00:01:57] Lindsay: I wanted to have Emily on the show because of what she just said. Not a lot of people are talking about how to do it. They're telling you. We're hearing a lot about why you need a team and my team, this, my team, that, and when you're just starting, that feels like so far and beyond where you are right now.

[00:02:16] And I remember thinking, I don't really know if I want a team, but it would be great to have some help here. What is, I think the biggest question I just had this conversation with the client. Literally, a half-hour ago, she said, should I hire somebody to handle my Pinterest? And she doesn't understand Pinterest at all.

[00:02:36] And because she's just beginning and that's awesome. And my advice to her was I want you to learn at first because. If you hire somebody, you don't know if they're doing it correctly or anything like that. And she's like, okay, that makes sense. So what's your thought process on this? When do you know when it's the right time to hire in your business and how do you know if, if that piece is the right thing to hire out?

[00:02:59] Emily: Yeah. So I tend to look at the four zones of work. I love this framework. It comes from Gay Hendricks book, The Big Leap. Are you familiar with that? Yes. Yeah, I thought so. Anyway, in it, he has this brief mention where he talks a couple of pages about the four zones of work. And at the top is the zone of genius.

[00:03:18] That's where like you're alive and you're on fire and you're passionate. And you are, you are in your zone. Like you are loving your work. It energizes you. It makes you come alive. Then below that is the zone of excellence. And that is, again, this is a staff you are better than most at And so again, this is like another area like to retain.

[00:03:37] Then we get into competence and incompetence, and these are the areas that I usually help people target for outsourcing. So competence is the stuff you can do. And I've noticed that a lot of entrepreneurs, especially bloggers and coaches, they, can do a lot. Right. We can do a lot of things. And I mean, I coach as well in, in my business.

[00:04:00] There's a lot of coaching that happens throughout, throughout all this work I do. And so we can do a lot. And so we tend to like to do the things we can do, but it might not be the best use of our time. It would be better to spend most of our time up in our zone of genes. And then also in excellence and then in competence is the bottom.

[00:04:20] And I've typically found that's the easiest area for people to outsource. So I think it can go either way. Right? I don't, I don't necessarily disagree with learning things first, but I think there just comes a point where you may not need to know all the ins and outs and it's okay to work with a specialist because you don't have time.

[00:04:41] It's not really adding. Value to your company, if you don't like Pinterest, you don't want to know it. Like you don't, it, it kind of comes down to some of that. So I looked at that, I love that framework. I think it really helps. It helps me ground into, to like what to, what to get help with and what to keep.

[00:05:01] Lindsay: Yeah. I think that's a great point to make. And I like that. I always want people to be really aware of, you know, you could hire somebody. And they'll say for example, yeah. I'll handle your Pinterest, but if they do. If they don't do what you want them to do, you're not aware of the success path that they're on.

[00:05:21] So that's a big red flag for me because I've gone through that experience. I teach Pinterest in my course, and if I hire somebody who isn't doing well, well, thank goodness. I know what well looks like. So that's really important, but I think the biggest thing, the foundation of it all is it doesn't make you happy to do this because there are things in our business, right?

[00:05:40] I just don't enjoy doing this, but I know it has to get done in order to make the wheels turn. Is that a big struggle with the people who come to you? Like, okay, I just don't want to do this. And I need help finding somebody 

[00:05:53] Emily: to help me is really around knowing the right role to bring into place because the default in our industry, in, you know, in online business in general and in coaching is the virtual assistant position.

[00:06:06] And that's not always the best thing first role for everyone. 

[00:06:13] Lindsay: That is interesting because everyone talks about “hire your first virtual assistant.” And once you get your first virtual assistant, you're not sure what to do with your virtual assistant. Talk about that a little bit.

[00:06:27] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, well there, so I love the virtual assistant role.

[00:06:32] Like I'm not saying bad things about the VA is I have a VA, but, but, and she wasn't my first hire. Well, actually I did hire a virtual assistant. You know, it's a long story. I did hire a virtual assistant very first in my business and it wasn't the right role. I wanted her to be an editor and I wanted help with editing and writing.

[00:06:53] And so if I could go back, I would have just hired an editor or it would have been the better, the better path forward. But I think there's a couple of things in that industry. One is it's, there's no standardization of what a VA does or what their skill set is, or really even their background. It's so mixed.

[00:07:14] There are people specializing in social media in the VA space. There are writers that are calling themselves VA's there are true virtual assistants who are supporting people as assistants. And so it's just really hard to find. The right person. And it's just a lot, right? You have to get the job posting, right.

[00:07:33] You have to balance like the role needs to be the right role. And, and so that's where it just gets really overwhelming. And then you post for a VA and then you have like a hundred VAs jump on you, but they're all different, right? Like they're specializing in totally different things. And so it's really hard.

[00:07:50] It's really overwhelming, to weed through all of that. 

[00:07:53] Lindsay: I think a virtual assistant is a godsend because we need it. I, I would love for somebody to just help me do all these little things that I need help with, like the assistant role. And I'm finding that if I hire somebody, they really like to just work in their zone of genius, which kind of defeats the purpose of me hiring a virtual assistant.

[00:08:15] So it's really hard. I mean, it can be hard to find the right person to help you in your business. So how do you, how do you help people get the right person? 

[00:08:26] Emily: Yeah. Well, I really look at the response. I look at the tasks that need to be outsourced the responsibilities, like in a job posting. There's always that list of things you want the person to do.

[00:08:37] And so I look at that and I make sure that one it's not too vague. And I also make sure they're not expecting too much from one person. So an example of this would be like, you want someone to write your blog posts, you want them scheduling your social media. You want them doing, you know, search engine optimization mean, you know, like that's where it's like, okay, you need like three different people for this.

[00:09:03] Cause like really when you're looking for help at our level, At like a coaching solopreneur kind of space. You're really looking for a specialist. That's what freelancers are. And they're, not, they're not always like a Jack or Jill of all trades there. They're more specialized in that. And so you get a lot more bang for your buck when you do hire a true specialist for their zone.

[00:09:33] Lindsay: That's such a great point to make. So for example, I want somebody to handle my podcast and that's all that they work in. And that's so important because if you throw too much their way, they're going to get overwhelmed. They're not going to feel happy to do their job. And then it's just kinda gonna explode from there.

[00:09:52], the biggest thing that I see is people want help. And they'll go. And I remember the first time I asked for help, I posted on an Instagram story. I want a business BFF to help me do everything. Yeah. And I got like the best one.  

[00:10:11] Emily: Mine was in a Facebook group. My first posting was a Facebook group and I wanted someone who was sparkly and reliable.

[00:10:19] Those are not qualifications for anything. I was so sparkly, maybe a unicorn. 

[00:10:28] Lindsay: Hey, maybe like my daughter she's four she's sparkly. She could, she could help you. I don't know if she's reliable, but. Oh, it's funny because we just don't even know. And I think one of the overwhelming things about bringing somebody on is like, okay, now what do I find for them to do?

[00:10:45] And you're kind of all over the place. And you're like, how is this even saving me any time? Because now I feel like I have to just go back and tell them what to do. And it's better for me to just do it myself. I think that's the personality that I have, the older, the oldest child. I'm a mom and a wife.

[00:11:03] You know how it is, I'll just do it myself. Right. Yes. And the same. Can we do everything ourselves? What's your opinion on that? 

[00:11:12] Emily: No, I don't think we can. I think I think you're limited, right? Like there's only so much. There's only so much energy and time and space and resources. And so it's just like we each get to decide how, how we use those.

[00:11:29] And I think one of the big things, I think that is so important with building a team and starting to bring in help is really setting an intention and a vision for that team. That I did that, like, so a few years into my process. So a few years into hiring, I was career coaching first. We didn't really talk about this, but I started out in career coaching.

[00:11:50] And when I was in that space, I remember a few years ago making my first organizational strategy for myself. And it was just a video. Of the three, like the areas that I really wanted help with, I was like, I don't want to do these things forever. And I want really amazing people in these roles. And now this year I've really achieved that, that vision.

[00:12:12] And so now I'm in the process of making the next vision, like the next organizational strategy and really by organizational strategy, I just mean like a fancy word for like what, which kind of roles you want. And then I. In that vision, I then write out kind of the high-level things I would want each person to do.

[00:12:30] And I make, like, I write like a little kind of intention of like who I want to work with. Like what kind of experience I want them to have. And like anything it characteristics too. I like to like document, like, do I need proactive, reliable, friendly, optimistic. And I will say like if you want someone, is those things like sparkly, right?

[00:12:53] Like optimistic kind friendly. Those words are really great. Yeah. They're like little flags to the freelancers that like, Hey, this I'm awesome. Do they know? Right. So if you're including that kind of, if you are just yourself too, in your job posting if you put in some of your personality that it does a lot better than like keeping it really sterile and like what we think is quote, unquote professional.

[00:13:20] So 

[00:13:20] Lindsay: it's almost like your job posting should be branded for your business. 

[00:13:25] Emily: Mm. Yeah, I think so. I think in the tone and voice, yeah. 

[00:13:30] Lindsay: I like how you kind of set the intentions of how you want your business to be. And I think that's so important that you even added personality characteristics. Like, like you said like he wants somebody to be proactive.

[00:13:42] I think resourceful and innovative, not just, you know, doing things to get it done. That's me, that's my thing. And to really sit down and picture what that would look like, because you might not have ever been in that position before, and it might feel really weird. Because you've been doing this by yourself this whole time.

[00:14:02] So when do you think it's a good idea to start doing this? When you, when you just start your business or when you start feeling some pain? 

[00:14:11] Emily: Yeah, I think, I think it's really up to the individual. That's like such a hard, I wish I had like a, like great like rule or process for this, but I've kind of seen people do everything.

[00:14:21] I mean, I've seen people scale into six figures on their own, usually, though that's the cap, right? Like usually people can get to the roughly six figures a little over by themselves before they're burning out. So I tend to be more proactive with it. And so there's a lot of people in, you know, making less, but it's like, you can do a lot with a few hours a week with a couple of freelancers and it doesn't have to, I mean, I think we have in our heads like you need a full-time employee and they're going to cost like $60,000 a year.

[00:14:54] But when you're looking at freelancers and you're looking at three to five hours a week at $30 an hour, I mean, even if you're paying. $30 for five hours a week, $150. If it's taking a ton of weight off of you and it's freeing up your time because likely there five hours is like 15 hours of you. I know that for me anyway.

[00:15:16] I mean, my assistant does stuff so fast. I'm shocked at what she can accomplish in like 30 minutes. I'm like that would have taken me half a day. Cause I would've like had at least an hour of procrastination in there and like, it would've been all like the mindset resistance stuff coming up and it's like, for her, it's just like, this is her client work.

[00:15:35] Like, bam, let's get it done. And she does it in five minutes and it's amazing. I remember 

[00:15:40] Lindsay: leaving a conference couple of years ago, and I was texting a friend who couldn't make it to the conference. And I was just filling her in on what, what she missed. And I said it was a lot of talk about building your team getting to a million dollars plus, and I wasn't into it.

[00:16:00] And she's like, why? And I said, because. Then, the girl who was talking about it was so stressed about her customer service team and her launch team and like all these people. And I thought, but she didn't share how much this million-dollar launch was when she's talking about all these people under. And I said, it seems so stressful to me to have all of these people relying on me to have a successful lunch or a great quarter.

[00:16:30] I don't know if I want that. And if that makes me not qualified to be a million-dollar business owner, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. And that it felt really good to say that. I don't know if I want that. Let's talk about the people who do talk about their gigantic teams and why that doesn't have to apply to your business.

[00:16:52] What are your thoughts? 

[00:16:54] Emily: Yeah. Well, I can, I completely agree with you. I'm completely with you on that. I, I, myself am like, I don't know that I even want that vision because when I look at what the people are doing, Like how they're living their lives and you know what we're seeing on social media. I'm like, that's not, that's not the whole picture.

[00:17:11] So it is, it's one of my biggest pet peeves is these really big, you know, podcasters and online course creators who are, you know, sharing about how to build their teams because they're not, they're not. Like you said they're not sharing the whole picture. The other thing is, is they're really hiring employees and it's so different.

[00:17:32] It's a totally different ball game. The other thing they're doing is they're really, they are really big names and so they can pretty much do whatever they want. They're kind of like Amazon. So this is another mistake I see. You know, online entrepreneurs making, as we look to the big companies, like, what are they doing?

[00:17:51] And it's not translating well. And the same thing is happening with these, you know, people with large platforms that have teams, we can't use, we can't rely on the same tactics that we're using because they can do whatever they want. You know, they can throw up some Instagram stories and have a hundred applications.

[00:18:10] And at that scale, yeah, you're going to have a handful that is really. High-performing and you're going to be able to hire the best of the best, like that easily and very quickly. That's another one. Some of them, talk about hire faster. Like I can hire in three days and I was like, but I cannot like we can, we as coaches and consultants and digital business owners.

[00:18:32] Not making $3 million this year. We can't hire that way and that's okay. Like I am all about hiring slow because I actually think that is where our intuition is better when we go more slowly when we give ourselves the time and space to process the information that's coming in, because it's, it, it is a lot.

[00:18:50] I mean, even if you're using like the way I, even, if you're following my job posting formula, you're going to have 30, 40, 50 applications. In that 30 to 50 range. It's a lot to take in and it's a lot to process if you're not, if you're not doing it all the time, I'd say that's the other thing. The big, the big players aren't being honest about is that they are hiring all the time.

[00:19:12] So it's something they're doing on a regular basis. They have a lot of practice with it. So if you don't, if you're not hiring, you know, every month or every few months you're just not going to have the same level of skill they're developed because you haven't put, haven't put the practice in or they're outsourcing it.

[00:19:29] Right. They're just outsourcing you don't have to hire someone like me too. Do it, or they're hiring a recruiting agency even, or an HR company to handle the process. So yeah, they can hire really fast because they have someone else doing it. It's not on them. 

[00:19:44] Lindsay: I don't know if I want to be that far away from my business, you know, I don't, I don't want to just be the face of my business and just show up.

[00:19:53] I'm supposed to, I mean, I mean, I, I get if that's what you want, but I really don't think that's what a lot of us want. And the problem is, is we're listening to these people and comparing ourselves to them, not just a team. And they're what our team looks like or what it doesn't look like to them, but we're comparing everything to them.

[00:20:15] We're comparing. There. Oh, I just created a $22 ebook and I made $5 billion and we're like, oh, let me make the ebook because I'll have the same success. That's not, that's not healthy because it's not going to work and you're going to get so down on yourself or they'll just simply put out something and it'll go viral.

[00:20:34] And then you think, well, I just did the same thing and mine did not do that. So we're always comparing ourselves to these. These big people in our eyes on we're comparing ourselves to people's highlight reels. We don't know the pain points that they have, and we can see I've, I've seen big. I'm just, I'm making finger quotes, big entrepreneurs who have these big teams and a blow up in their face because they're moving 

[00:20:59] Emily: so fast 

[00:21:01] Lindsay: and it just completely explodes.

[00:21:04] We have to be careful with those things. So that's why we have to have these conversations where it might be a little crunchy, but if no one else is talking about it, that means we should be okay. People need to hear it. And they got us, they got to stop feeling like they need to be like the blank with the blanks and the blinks out there without mentioning names.

[00:21:21] You don't have to be like them. It's okay to just live, live your life and grow your business at your own pace. Talk about hiring a slow, what does that mean? Yeah. 

[00:21:32] Emily: So I just, I'd say I take my time with the review process. I, you know, I, I generally run like a three-week process whenever I'm hiring. So it takes me about a month whether I'm hiring for myself or someone else.

[00:21:47] A whole month, I spent an entire month hiring process. And so first I create the job posting. Then I run the, I keep it open usually for about a week and see where I'm at and see if I need to extend and, you know, get more applicants. But usually at a week, I'll have 30 to 50 applicants and that's enough to have a few standouts.

[00:22:09] And then, and then I do a work sample for most roles because freelancers are specialists. I'm hiring them for a skillset. And so I can test their skillset before I'm even talking to them because that, again, the the application to interview process, that's like a big company thing, right?

[00:22:30] Like we're all doing that because that's how we, that's how we got jobs as employees and in those days. And so we think that's how it has to work now. And it, it doesn't. You can make it look however you want. And so I love doing work samples and I put it before the interview because it really helps me narrow down the candidates.

[00:22:49] Because another thing people don't tell you about freelancers is they apply a lot and a lot of them have backgrounds in marketing or writing, so their applications can look amazing. And then you end up interviewing people who don't really have. What you're looking for, or they can't deliver it for you.

[00:23:07] And so I found the work sample just saves a really. A lot of time and energy it does take, you know, an extra week. It takes me a few extra days to do it, but I'm just upfront about doing it. And I pay, I offer to pay everyone $20. I do a flat fee because I want to honor their work and I consider it part of the.

[00:23:26] Part of the cost. If I posted on indeed or LinkedIn, you know, they charge fees for their job posting. So like this is part of my job posting fee. And then I go into interviews. After I see, after I see the work samples, then I decide who I'm going to interview my top three through three to five candidates.

[00:23:44] Hmm. I love 

[00:23:45] Lindsay: that you do samples. I think that's amazing because all of a sudden. I've contracted into something that is like, whoa, I don't know if this is the best fit. I remember my first virtual assistant, she worked for me for a whole month for free, just to see if I liked her. And I was like, oh my gosh, that is so sweet.

[00:24:04] And I thought that was so nice because she had to get familiar with everything that I had. And so on the other side of it too, is think about what if you're a virtual assistant or freelance or think about that. I really appreciated that. I mean, a month is a lot, but it was really great for her to get familiar with my business.

[00:24:22] Because our businesses are babies, right. It's, it's hard to hand tasks off, no matter if we don't enjoy doing them or not, it's like, eh, it's okay. I trust you. Right. It's hard to do that. Do you mind sharing what things you have hired out in your brain? 

[00:24:38] Emily: Yeah, I'm happy to. Right now I have three contractors that, that helped me and I have a virtual assistant.

[00:24:45] Who's a true assistant. She runs my calendar and my email and it's, that has been amazing. That was like the last piece for me to give up. I tried to hand it off before and they just had kind of struggled with it. And so I finally. Was that I was kind of at a place too, of like capacity was an issue for me and I was struggling to do that.

[00:25:04] And then she also does a lot of the project management as well in my business. So she kind of keeps track of my editorial calendar and like, which podcast am I on this week? And what does the promotion look like for that? Cause I love doing podcast interviews. I do a lot of that. And all of those things.

[00:25:21] And then she also keeps track of my clients as well. Like making sure I'm like, I am where I'm supposed to be and everyone has what they need. So that's my virtual assistant. I kind of think of her virtual assistant slash project manager because she's more than a VA. And then I have a second VA doing social media for me.

[00:25:39] So she creates all my images. She does all my scheduling and then the third person is I have a writer who edits my stuff. So I do a lot of my writing. I like to write, I'd say I'm a better speaker. It's easier, more fun. Writing for me is more like a zone of excellence. It's kind of draining. It's hard for me to get the finished product out of me.

[00:25:57] I like to just rough things out and then I have a writer who like to clean it up and makes it sound better. And sound like me, and she's great at capturing my voice and offering other ideas for content based on what I've done. And so it's just kind of nice there and it's just really, it's really lovely.

[00:26:14] And I think everyone works about five hours a week, so it's nice to save you probably. Oh, yeah, I wouldn't, yeah. I wouldn't be where I am without those three ladies. 

[00:26:28] Lindsay: I love that. Emily, can you share with everyone how they can find you and find out more about your program and working with you? 

[00:26:34] Emily: Yes. So I'm on Instagram at Emily dot paren.

[00:26:39] I love meeting people over there and I'm always there. In my DMS. And then I'm also, my website is EmilyPerron.com. That's where you can check out my programs. Learn more about the hiring fix working with me one-on-one whether that's, you know, just helping you craft that vision, that organizational strategy, or like if you are interested in doing some recruiting work with me. Yeah. I love supporting people.  

[00:27:04] Lindsay: We'll put all of Emily's links in the show notes because it is something to think about, even if you're just at the stage where you're crafting, what it's going to look like for you. I love her approach, so definitely go and utilize her resources. Thank you so much for being on the show, Emily, this was a great conversation and I'm grateful for your time.

[00:27:22] Thanks, Lindsay.